|
|
Post by Parker on Sept 9, 2022 7:39:05 GMT -8
Josheb Said: Given the inevitability humanity would collectively and individually sin and God knew beforehand, it was necessary to address that problem. So everyone is dead in sin and from that state God chose to save some. By default, everyone not chosen to be saved was chosen for destruction but that does not mean God picked up every individual action figure and arbitrarily tossed some in one pile and others in another pile Rockson: Oh come on it does so but I guess all readers will have to decide. You're saying God chose to save SOME and from your way of thinking that means people individuals by name. That means all other individuals he's chosen not to grant the privileges! How can you then say he didn't choose to toss some in one pile and others in another? Sorry but there's nothing about what you're saying that makes any sense. I see it differently---Adam's fallen race's destiny is destruction. That was determined at the Fall. God keeps a remnant in order to fulfill His eternal purpose. Remnant: In spite of God’s judgments against His disobedient people, they will never be totally destroyed; a faithful remnant will always be preserved to keep alive the testimony of divine truth and the hope of the coming Messiah Isaiah 10:20–22 In that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no more lean upon him that smote them, but will lean upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21 A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. 22 For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. |
|
|
|
Post by Redeemed on Dec 25, 2022 13:28:06 GMT -8
Election is not salvation.
Election is typically defined today as; God chooses who's going to be saved. And some people will then, therefore, state what is probably an obvious corollary; he chooses the people that aren't saved, that go to hell or whatever. So you either have predestination, or you have double predestination. And I don't care about any of that, because I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of election. If you raise the question; was Israel elect? It's kind of a no brainer, of course, they were elect.
They're chosen. And then the other nations are not chosen. Should we define then election as salvation, so we can therefore assume that because Israel was elect, the Israelites were also elect, and then they're all saved, right? At that moment, you might have some kind of suspect that we might have a problem here. And they have a huge problem because there's something in biblical history called the Exile. Election is not about salvation. Those two things are not synonymous. I think we fundamentally misunderstood this. Check it out!
|
|
|
|
Post by rockson on Dec 28, 2022 13:38:54 GMT -8
Election is not salvation. Election is typically defined today as; God chooses who's going to be saved. And some people will then, therefore, state what is probably an obvious corollary; he chooses the people that aren't saved, that go to hell or whatever. So you either have predestination, or you have double predestination. And I don't care about any of that, because I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of election. If you raise the question; was Israel elect? It's kind of a no brainer, of course, they were elect. They're chosen. And then the other nations are not chosen. Should we define then election as salvation, so we can therefore assume that because Israel was elect, the Israelites were also elect, and then they're all saved, right? At that moment, you might have some kind of suspect that we might have a problem here. And they have a huge problem because there's something in biblical history called the Exile. Election is not about salvation. Those two things are not synonymous. I think we fundamentally misunderstood this. Check it out! Even the first line in how he started was good. If Election meant going to heaven Israel being called the elect you've got a lot of Baal worshippers in heaven now. |
|
|
|
Post by civic on Dec 28, 2022 14:47:45 GMT -8
Election is not salvation. Election is typically defined today as; God chooses who's going to be saved. And some people will then, therefore, state what is probably an obvious corollary; he chooses the people that aren't saved, that go to hell or whatever. So you either have predestination, or you have double predestination. And I don't care about any of that, because I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of election. If you raise the question; was Israel elect? It's kind of a no brainer, of course, they were elect. They're chosen. And then the other nations are not chosen. Should we define then election as salvation, so we can therefore assume that because Israel was elect, the Israelites were also elect, and then they're all saved, right? At that moment, you might have some kind of suspect that we might have a problem here. And they have a huge problem because there's something in biblical history called the Exile. Election is not about salvation. Those two things are not synonymous. I think we fundamentally misunderstood this. Check it out! Even the first line in how he started was good. If Election meant going to heaven Israel being called the elect you've got a lot of Baal worshippers in heaven now. Good points to think about brother |
|
|
|
Post by praiseyeshua on Jan 13, 2023 11:51:22 GMT -8
Even the first line in how he started was good. If Election meant going to heaven Israel being called the elect you've got a lot of Baal worshippers in heaven now. Good points to think about brother This is one of the reason I combat Calvinism's self serving position on election. "Mine Elect" is Jesus Christ. God's choice in Himself. Jesus Christ. Before this world was ever formed, Jesus Christ was CHOSEN. That is all that matters in Election. There is nothing else. |
|
|
|
Post by civic on Jan 13, 2023 16:37:04 GMT -8
Good points to think about brother This is one of the reason I combat Calvinism's self serving position on election. "Mine Elect" is Jesus Christ. God's choice in Himself. Jesus Christ. Before this world was ever formed, Jesus Christ was CHOSEN. That is all that matters in Election. There is nothing else. Amen that is a great point brother. Christology 101 and the Bible is Christocentric. |
|
toml
Junior Member
Posts: 53
|
Post by toml on Jan 21, 2023 9:35:03 GMT -8
The thing I find Calvinists need to consider is that they don't own the word "sovereignty". They'll claim some of them that they believe in the sovereignty of God but you don't. That's like going in circles around the wagons and trying to protect what they think belongs to them, the word sovereignty. NO. Other's believe in the sovereignty of God as well but have discernment I believe in knowing how God uses his sovereignty and how he doesn't. Or to put it another way God has the sovereign right to allow freedom of will if he wants to and who is man to say that he can't? Calvinists assume God's sovereignty means he must meticulously determine all things but it means he rules as King. There is no need for him to meticulously determine all thing to be sovereign |
|
|
|
Post by rockson on Jan 22, 2023 4:48:43 GMT -8
One thought is the Calvinist misuse of the word sovereign. The word means having the right to rule over everything in your kingdom. Sovereignty does not mean that you have to act on it, only that you have the right... This may be a duplicate post, trying to figure out how this place works That's a very good way of explaining it. Calvinists would claim all of the world needs covered in water and if it wasn't he wouldn't be much of a God. |
|
|
|
Post by TibiasDad on Jan 22, 2023 19:25:30 GMT -8
Election is not salvation. Election is typically defined today as; God chooses who's going to be saved. And some people will then, therefore, state what is probably an obvious corollary; he chooses the people that aren't saved, that go to hell or whatever. So you either have predestination, or you have double predestination. And I don't care about any of that, because I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of election. If you raise the question; was Israel elect? It's kind of a no brainer, of course, they were elect. They're chosen. And then the other nations are not chosen. Should we define then election as salvation, so we can therefore assume that because Israel was elect, the Israelites were also elect, and then they're all saved, right? At that moment, you might have some kind of suspect that we might have a problem here. And they have a huge problem because there's something in biblical history called the Exile. Election is not about salvation. Those two things are not synonymous. I think we fundamentally misunderstood this. Check it out! Election, is the exercise of choice; Israel, salvation, reprobation, etc, etc, is the purpose or object of Election. Abraham/Israel is the object of God's choice, and to be his people is the purpose of his choosing Israel. Doug |
|
