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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 18, 2022 10:39:13 GMT -8
In my view there is only one essential topic. That is the gospel of christ. Paul said if anyone teaches a different gospel they are to be accursed (literally damned) Unlike topics like prophecy, speaking n tongues, denominations, end of times etc etc, which are not salvic. If we get the gospel wrong. We are hellbound. Calvinism and Arminianism are other non essential doctrines.. I agree with a poster in another thread. It is good to discuss. But when ones salvation comes into question, on these topics. Then one has crossed the line.. Sadly. That means some things which people love to argue (like baptismal regeneration. Or the OSAS/NOSAS debate, in my view are essential. There is only one gospel. if baptism is required. Then those who are not baptised in order to be saved, cannot be saved because they have failed to receive the one true gospel (the opposite is true if water baptism is not required to be saved) same goes with OSAS/NOSAS.. they both can not be true. And both are based on ones perception of what the gospel is Sadly. In all of my years of hearing this particular debate. I see most who reject OSAS do so because they reject calvinism. And it appears they believe that if they accept it, they would be excepting calvinism, The same goes for NOSAS.. a calvinist leaning person would never accept NOSAS, because they would have to admit they are wrong, and maybe these arminians are correct. Amazingly, I never heard the term OSAS until I joined a christian chat about 8 years ago. I am 57 years old. And have been going to church since I was 5 . Thats also why I try not to argue OSAS or NOSAS.. or denominationalsim, or the like. I want to discuss the word of God. Not what this group or that group thinks anyway.. I reject OSAS because I reject the doctrine of Sola Fide if, by it, faith is understood to justify us by an imputed righteousness only. That notion is the primary source of conflict and confusion over whether or not one can lose their salvation because when righteousness is reduced to having faith, and not in actually being and living righteously as a result of faith and the union with God that it establishes, then the door is open to believing that no degree of righteousness or refraining from sin is necessary in order to be saved. We just have to beleive...in whatever set of truths we think are required. Historically it was believed that, once freely justified, we're now able to overcome the sin that otherwise condemns us, to finally walk in the light, and that we're obligated to do just that to the best we can, by the Spirit, now under grace. I believe in baptismal regeneration simply because Jesus said to do it and the church has known no other way or belief for centuries, even as it acknowledges that God certainly isn't bound to such a command if someone is unable to act upon it. so from what I read, you believe you must earn your salvation by works. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 18, 2022 10:40:02 GMT -8
Calvinism and Arminianism are other non essential doctrines. These are both different "gospels" and they impact on the true Gospel. they are not Gospels. they are groups of people who believe a certain way. |
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Post by hansen on Aug 19, 2022 10:21:29 GMT -8
I reject OSAS because I reject the doctrine of Sola Fide if, by it, faith is understood to justify us by an imputed righteousness only. That notion is the primary source of conflict and confusion over whether or not one can lose their salvation because when righteousness is reduced to having faith, and not in actually being and living righteously as a result of faith and the union with God that it establishes, then the door is open to believing that no degree of righteousness or refraining from sin is necessary in order to be saved. We just have to beleive...in whatever set of truths we think are required. Historically it was believed that, once freely justified, we're now able to overcome the sin that otherwise condemns us, to finally walk in the light, and that we're obligated to do just that to the best we can, by the Spirit, now under grace. I believe in baptismal regeneration simply because Jesus said to do it and the church has known no other way or belief for centuries, even as it acknowledges that God certainly isn't bound to such a command if someone is unable to act upon it. so from what I read, you believe you must earn your salvation by works. So...the historical teaching of the Christian faith is that man cannot justify himself. He does not and cannot make himself just by mere external works of the law. He must be changed on the inside first as a result of turning to God in faith, as God then becomes the God of man which is the most basic right and just order of things to begin with. God, alone, can justify man, IOW, as we enter direct union/communion with Him. “I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33-34 From there we are obligated to walk in that light which will occur as we truly remain in Him. Our wills, and the possibility of abusing them as Adam originally did in Eden, are not destroyed or overridden; we can lose our state of justice, and therefore salvation, by returning to the flesh and sinning in the grievous manner that Scripture ensures us will exclude us from heaven, from God's presence, by living unjustly, IOW, by choosing evil over good again. With whatever time and grace we have we work out our salvation and confirm our calling with He who works in us. We'll be challenged, tested, and, hopefully refined and to the extent that we are, our choice for good and our own ability to act on it is confirmed, strengthened, and grown; we draw nearer to God and to the purpose, perfection, telos that we were created for. Man was not created to be a sinner to begin with, after all, but with a huge and noble potential to become something , something like God whose image he was made in to begin with. Salvation is a journey, that begins with faith. I'm fine with letting the Just Judge determine how well I did on that journey at the end of the day. The new covenant was never intended to be a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous, but, rather, the very means to begin to authentically achieve it, finally. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 19, 2022 10:40:31 GMT -8
so from what I read, you believe you must earn your salvation by works. So...the historical teaching of the Christian faith is that man cannot justify himself. He does not and cannot make himself just by mere external works of the law. He must be changed on the inside first as a result of turning to God in faith, as God then becomes the God of man which is the most basic right and just order of things to begin with. God, alone, can justify man, IOW, as we enter direct union/communion with Him. “I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33-34 From there we are obligated to walk in that light which will occur as we truly remain in Him. Our wills, and the possibility of abusing them as Adam originally did in Eden, are not destroyed or overridden; we can lose our state of justice, and therefore salvation, by returning to the flesh and sinning in the grievous manner that Scripture ensures us will exclude us from heaven, from God's presence, by living unjustly, IOW, by choosing evil over good again. With whatever time and grace we have we work out our salvation and confirm our calling with He who works in us. We'll be challenged, tested, and, hopefully refined and to the extent that we are, our choice for good and our own ability to act on it is confirmed, strengthened, and grown; we draw nearer to God and to the purpose, perfection, telos that we were created for. Man was not created to be a sinner to begin with, after all, but with a huge and noble potential to become something , something like God whose image he was made in to begin with. Salvation is a journey, that begins with faith. I'm fine with letting the Just Judge determine how well I did on that journey at the end of the day. Jeremiah is actually written to the nation of Israel. about their restoration. Gods standard is perfection. If you are going to work to earn salvation. this is the starting point. If you can not meet this standard. then you can not earn your salvation. You can not lose your state of justice. because you could never earn your state of justice. You are justified by faith, but this is only possible by Grace. Sanctification is a journey. Salvation is a state. We are in a state of salvation the moment we say yes to God in faith. And that state is assured and sealed by the Holy SPirit until the day of redemption. Your redeemed by Blood. Not by your works. If you reject grace. You will stand in front of God and be judged by your works. And you will be left wanting. Because you will fall short. |
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Post by hansen on Aug 19, 2022 11:25:18 GMT -8
Jeremiah is actually written to the nation of Israel. about their restoration. Gods standard is perfection. If you are going to work to earn salvation. this is the starting point. If you can not meet this standard. then you can not earn your salvation. You can not lose your state of justice. because you could never earn your state of justice. You are justified by faith, but this is only possible by Grace. Sanctification is a journey. Salvation is a state. We are in a state of salvation the moment we say yes to God in faith. And that state is assured and sealed by the Holy SPirit until the day of redemption. Your redeemed by Blood. Not by your works. If you reject grace. You will stand in front of God and be judged by your works. And you will be left wanting. Because you will fall short. Jer 31 is about the new covenant, which applies to us all Heb (8 & 10). The church has long taught that absolute sinless perfection is not possible in this life, and yet neither is wanton grave sin, the kind that leads to death, i.e. separation from God, acceptable: "The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21 "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Gal 6:7-8 "Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13 We don't earn our state of justice but we can certainly lose or forfeit it, by living unjustly, not by the Spirit. The new covenant involves both the forgiveness of sin/unrighteousness and the implanting of righteousness, God's seed, in us. Again, it was never intended as a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous but the very means to finally a chieve it, the right way, God's way, by virtue of union with Him rather than reliance on ourselves, under the law. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" John 15:5. There are many encouraging words, some hyperbole, in Scripture about our salvation but then balanced by warnings and admonitions to persevere, be vigilant, be holy, refrain from sin, invest ones talents, put to death the deeds of the flesh, do good, obey the commandments, with eternal life at stake. We're fully equipped as believers to do the right thing in the overall scheme of things, to walk in the light, but we may not, as well. It doesn't end with faith; it begins there. So sanctification is simply a journey that begins at justification, both part and parcel of the same process, the same journey. We can jump ship at any time. But most Christians already know and live that way intuitively-regardless of professed theology. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 19, 2022 11:55:41 GMT -8
Jeremiah is actually written to the nation of Israel. about their restoration. Gods standard is perfection. If you are going to work to earn salvation. this is the starting point. If you can not meet this standard. then you can not earn your salvation. You can not lose your state of justice. because you could never earn your state of justice. You are justified by faith, but this is only possible by Grace. Sanctification is a journey. Salvation is a state. We are in a state of salvation the moment we say yes to God in faith. And that state is assured and sealed by the Holy SPirit until the day of redemption. Your redeemed by Blood. Not by your works. If you reject grace. You will stand in front of God and be judged by your works. And you will be left wanting. Because you will fall short. Jer 31 is about the new covenant, which applies to us all Heb (8 & 10). The church has long taught that absolute sinless perfection is not possible in this life, and yet neither is wanton grave sin, the kind that leads to death, i.e. separation from God, acceptable: "The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21 "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Gal 6:7-8 "Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13 We don't earn our state of justice but we can certainly lose or forfeit it, by living unjustly, not by the Spirit. The new covenant involves both the forgiveness of sin/unrighteousness and the implanting of righteousness, God's seed, in us. Again, it was never intended as a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous but the very means to finally a chieve it, the right way, God's way, by virtue of union with Him rather than reliance on ourselves, under the law. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" John 15:5. There are many encouraging words, some hyperbole, in Scripture about our salvation but then balanced by warnings and admonitions to persevere, be vigilant, be holy, refrain from sin, invest ones talents, put to death the deeds of the flesh, do good, obey the commandments, with eternal life at stake. We're fully equipped as believers to do the right thing in the overall scheme of things, to walk in the light, but we may not, as well. It doesn't end with faith; it begins there. So sanctification is simply a journey that begins at justification, both part and parcel of the same process, the same journey. We can jump ship at any time. But most Christians already know and live that way intuitively-regardless of professed theology. Jeremiah 31 is a prophecy of the return of Isreal. Paul mentions it in Romans 11, While the church certainly can benefit from it,. it was not written to the church You can;t claim we do not earn our state of justice then claim we can basically unearn it. That is a contradiction of terms, If we can unearn it, we certainly must earn it.. Sanctification is two part. I am sanctified (set apart) positionally as being in christ. this is equal to justification. I am being sanctified (set apart) daily as I walk with christ and learn in my life. Yet even then, it is him who sanctifies.. He takes us through the things we need to help grow us as the good book says. By one offering he perfected forever (justification/positional sanctifiation) those who are being sanctified. Glorification is the part where our positional sanctification and conditional sanctification meet. where they are euql. Where god's work is complete. Our conditional sanctification will never meet our positional in this lifetime.. so we can not earn salvation by trying to meet that standard.. Which is perfection.. |
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nahum
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Post by nahum on Aug 19, 2022 18:31:04 GMT -8
"...so we can not earn salvation by trying to meet that standard.. Which is perfection."
No one can earn salvation. And that is why salvation -- eternal life -- is a free gift of God's grace. We are justified by grace through faith. That is entirely a work of God based upon the perfect finished work of Christ.
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Post by hansen on Aug 21, 2022 2:35:10 GMT -8
Jer 31 is about the new covenant, which applies to us all Heb (8 & 10). The church has long taught that absolute sinless perfection is not possible in this life, and yet neither is wanton grave sin, the kind that leads to death, i.e. separation from God, acceptable: "The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21 "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Gal 6:7-8 "Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13 We don't earn our state of justice but we can certainly lose or forfeit it, by living unjustly, not by the Spirit. The new covenant involves both the forgiveness of sin/unrighteousness and the implanting of righteousness, God's seed, in us. Again, it was never intended as a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous but the very means to finally a chieve it, the right way, God's way, by virtue of union with Him rather than reliance on ourselves, under the law. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" John 15:5. There are many encouraging words, some hyperbole, in Scripture about our salvation but then balanced by warnings and admonitions to persevere, be vigilant, be holy, refrain from sin, invest ones talents, put to death the deeds of the flesh, do good, obey the commandments, with eternal life at stake. We're fully equipped as believers to do the right thing in the overall scheme of things, to walk in the light, but we may not, as well. It doesn't end with faith; it begins there. So sanctification is simply a journey that begins at justification, both part and parcel of the same process, the same journey. We can jump ship at any time. But most Christians already know and live that way intuitively-regardless of professed theology. Jeremiah 31 is a prophecy of the return of Isreal. Paul mentions it in Romans 11, While the church certainly can benefit from it,. it was not written to the church You can;t claim we do not earn our state of justice then claim we can basically unearn it. That is a contradiction of terms, If we can unearn it, we certainly must earn it.. The new covenant is for all, and the writer of Hebrews cites Jer 31 as applying to that covenant. And of course we can lose our state of justice. That state is all about union with God, ultimately a union of loving subjugation that we were made for. Adam basically turned and walked away from it and that’s the source of humanity’s alienation from God. The essence of man’s justice is that very union, reestablished and entered into as we turn back to God via faith. As Adam did originally we can turn back away from it and die all over again, failing to remain in Him IOW.
We cannot justify ourselves, but we can resist that grace at any time, whether at the beginning when He calls, or later on in our walk. We can forfeit it by living very unjustly, refusing to walk in His ways, returning to the flesh. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 21, 2022 2:44:16 GMT -8
Jeremiah 31 is a prophecy of the return of Isreal. Paul mentions it in Romans 11, While the church certainly can benefit from it,. it was not written to the church You can;t claim we do not earn our state of justice then claim we can basically unearn it. That is a contradiction of terms, If we can unearn it, we certainly must earn it.. The new covenant is for all, and the writer of Hebrews cites Jer 31 as applying to that covenant. And of course we can lose our state of justice. That state is all about union with God, ultimately a union of loving subjugation that we were made for. Adam basically turned and walked away from it and that’s the source of humanity’s alienation from God. The essence of man’s justice is that very union, reestablished and entered into as we turn back to God via faith. As with Adam did originally we can turn back away from it and die all over again, as we fail to remain in Him IOW.If God writes the law in our hears. We would follow that law. In fact all the OT prophets state this, when Isreal is restored. They will nto sin their sins against God anymore.. This is what Jeremiah 31 states. 31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, [h]though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
By the way. Hebrews was written to the hebrew people. So YES, it was written to the jews. Again, We have access to that grace, but it was not written to us When you state the law is written on our hearts. Yet we can again turn away from it.. Thats not what jer 31 says.. It says we will KNOW GOD, We will WALK WITH HIM. Back to the justice thing. If you are justified by faith through the grace of God. You can not be unjustified. You could not earn your justification. You can not lose it. That would be called justified by works or the law. Paul said if it is of grace it is no longer of works.. otherwise grace is no longer grace. Works cancel out grace. Because it takes what was to be a gift. And turns it into a reward or wage. You can;t earn salvation. If you try to earn it, you will fail |
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Post by hansen on Aug 21, 2022 10:10:02 GMT -8
By the way. Hebrews was written to the hebrew people. So YES, it was written to the jews. Again, We have access to that grace, but it was not written to us When you state the law is written on our hearts. Yet we can again turn away from it.. Thats not what jer 31 says.. It says we will KNOW GOD, We will WALK WITH HIM. The new covenant is for all humankind. The church has never understood Jer 31 any other way. "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22 |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 21, 2022 16:31:34 GMT -8
By the way. Hebrews was written to the hebrew people. So YES, it was written to the jews. Again, We have access to that grace, but it was not written to us When you state the law is written on our hearts. Yet we can again turn away from it.. Thats not what jer 31 says.. It says we will KNOW GOD, We will WALK WITH HIM. The new covenant is for all humankind. The church has never understood Jer 31 any other way. "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22 Are you catholic or something? I posted jeremiah. It was written to Isreal. You can deny it all you want. Hebrews was written to the Jewish church. Again, you can deny it all you want. I also showed you in jeremiah and other OT where the people under the new covenant would not continue in sin. Yet you want me to believe they can. I will chose to listen to the word. And not some organization that calls itself the church |
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Post by hansen on Aug 21, 2022 18:50:46 GMT -8
The new covenant is for all humankind. The church has never understood Jer 31 any other way. "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22 Are you catholic or something? I posted jeremiah. It was written to Isreal. You can deny it all you want. Hebrews was written to the Jewish church. Again, you can deny it all you want. I also showed you in jeremiah and other OT where the people under the new covenant would not continue in sin. Yet you want me to believe they can. I will chose to listen to the word. And not some organization that calls itself the church |
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Post by hansen on Aug 21, 2022 18:59:47 GMT -8
Are you catholic or something? I posted jeremiah. It was written to Isreal. You can deny it all you want. Hebrews was written to the Jewish church. Again, you can deny it all you want. I also showed you in jeremiah and other OT where the people under the new covenant would not continue in sin. Yet you want me to believe they can. I will chose to listen to the word. And not some organization that calls itself the church Yes, I'm Catholic, formerly Protestant. I've done my homework. Anyway, the church has consistently understood that she's the new Israel, with those promises applying to her. Either way, do you deny that the new Covenant is for all humankind, Jews and Gentiles alike? And if you are under that covenant, as I'm assuming you believe yourself to be, does that mean that you never sin personally, in thought, word, and deed? BTW, I'd rather listen to the church that God established than some private intepretations of an individual. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 22, 2022 4:32:12 GMT -8
Yes, I'm Catholic, formerly Protestant. I've done my homework. Anyway, the church has consistently understood that she's the new Israel, with those promises applying to her. Either way, do you deny that the new Covenant is for all humankind, Jews and Gentiles alike? And if you are under that covenant, as I'm assuming you believe yourself to be, does that mean that you never sin personally, in thought, word, and deed? BTW, I'd rather listen to the church that God established than some private intepretations of an individual. Replacement theology is an error my friend. If the promises that applied to isreal belonged to the roman church. She would be living in Israel today. Whe would be seen as housed in jerusalem, Not in Rome, where her pagan roots were founded. The new covenant is for all. I already explained that. But it was WRITTEN TO ISREAL. However. For you to see this, You have to stop listening to the men who teach you in fear. And start to look at the word itself. ps. Being protestant does not mean anything. Many protestant churches are just Catholics with less “works” required to get to heaven. And without a pope.. |
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Post by hansen on Aug 22, 2022 6:32:18 GMT -8
Yes, I'm Catholic, formerly Protestant. I've done my homework. Anyway, the church has consistently understood that she's the new Israel, with those promises applying to her. Either way, do you deny that the new Covenant is for all humankind, Jews and Gentiles alike? And if you are under that covenant, as I'm assuming you believe yourself to be, does that mean that you never sin personally, in thought, word, and deed? BTW, I'd rather listen to the church that God established than some private intepretations of an individual. Do you think the Church has replaced Israel? J. While the Jews still have their place in God's heart and plans, yes, with Christ the promises were transferred to the wider audience now, to the church, to the whole world. |
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