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Post by hansen on Sept 2, 2022 1:33:38 GMT -8
So the free gift can be rejected at any time; believers can return to the flesh- which is why we're warned not to, remember? So this “Free Gift” is not really “free” , is it ? You be a “good widdle boy” and don’t ever “ return to the Flesh” or you will forfeit your “gift” ......that is not a “Gift” .....That is a Trade—- a “tit-for- tat”, as they say...... Once you accept God’s Free Gift , I am sorry, my friend .....you are Stuck! Stuck because “NOTHING in the Created World “ can remove you from His Grip....that “ Nothing” that I just quoted? That would include YOU! I’m sorry, “friend”, but you must be a good widdle boy if you want to see God. His words not mine. His gospel certainly didn’t make it ok to be a bad widdle boy; that’s satans gospel. I assure you that the new covenant did not make a single change to the obligation for man to obey the greatest commandments, but actually gave him the ability to finally begin to fulfill them. Nor did it change this injunction in Micah 6:8: “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.”
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Sept 3, 2022 0:36:45 GMT -8
So the free gift can be rejected at any time; believers can return to the flesh- which is why we're warned not to, remember? So this “Free Gift” is not really “free” , is it ? You be a “good widdle boy” and don’t ever “ return to the Flesh” or you will forfeit your “gift” ......that is not a “Gift” .....That is a Trade—- a “tit-for- tat”, as they say...... Once you accept God’s Free Gift , I am sorry, my friend .....you are Stuck! Stuck because “NOTHING in the Created World “ can remove you from His Grip....that “ Nothing” that I just quoted? That would include YOU! I’m sorry, “friend”, but you must be a good widdle boy if you want to see God. His words not mine. His gospel certainly didn’t make it ok to be a bad widdle boy; that’s satans gospel. I assure you that the new covenant did not make a single change to the obligation for man to obey the greatest commandments, but actually gave him the ability to finally begin to fulfill them. Nor did it change this injunction in Micah 6:8: “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” ”There is NONE that is “ Good”——- No, NOT ONE! “ We cant obey those “ Great Commandments” .....in fact those Commandments were “ GIVEN” to “SHOW YOU” that you Cant Keep them .....they were given so that you would “ shut your mouth” about the delusion that you “ CAN” keep them and let them show you that you are a Sinner That MUST have a Savior.... Even Paul said that the Law was an Impossible System That, “ Neither he nor his Fathers could follow”..... and yet “YOU“ can.....some people have not learned the Firs Lesson Of The Law—- Shut Up!
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Sept 3, 2022 0:43:09 GMT -8
I’m sorry, “friend”, but you must be a good widdle boy if you want to see God.
Here’s a little something that you need to understand—— Anybody that thinks that they are “ good enough” to make it to Heaven are Damned.If ANYBODY could “ Merit” Heaven by their Morality or “ goodness” , That would mean that God allowed Jesus to be tortured and beaten beyond recognition, and hung naked on a Horrible Cross for absolutely NO reason......
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2022 7:09:13 GMT -8
"In essentials, unity; In non-essentials, liberty; In all things, charity." I'm going to list a few essentials of Christianity. Do you agree with these and what others ones would you add to the list and why ? Thanks ! 1-The Trinity 2-The Deity of Christ 3-The humanity of Christ 4-The gospel 5-The bodily Resurrecting/Ascension and 2nd Coming of Christ 6-Salvation by grace through faith apart from works 7-Inerrancy and Inspiration of scripture 8-Love of the brethren demonstrating the fruit of the spirit 9-Being a disciple of Christ as per the gospels and great commission. 10- The depravity of man from the fall hope this helps !!! For everyone: How many of those 10 essentials were understood by the thief on the cross?.
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Post by civic on Sept 3, 2022 7:19:16 GMT -8
"In essentials, unity; In non-essentials, liberty; In all things, charity." I'm going to list a few essentials of Christianity. Do you agree with these and what others ones would you add to the list and why ? Thanks ! 1-The Trinity 2-The Deity of Christ 3-The humanity of Christ 4-The gospel 5-The bodily Resurrecting/Ascension and 2nd Coming of Christ 6-Salvation by grace through faith apart from works 7-Inerrancy and Inspiration of scripture 8-Love of the brethren demonstrating the fruit of the spirit 9-Being a disciple of Christ as per the gospels and great commission. 10- The depravity of man from the fall hope this helps !!! For everyone: How many of those 10 essentials were understood by the thief on the cross?. so would it be accurate to say that the one exception becomes the rule in your paradigm ? should we also do away with the great commission? believers do not need to be baptized ? we don't need to make disciples ? I can list another dozen if needed.
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Post by Redeemed on Sept 3, 2022 8:22:49 GMT -8
We might be talking apples and oranges here. The ten essentials in my opinion may be necessary for Christian growth and sanctification. You have to remember there were three crosses on that hill. And all three have a different story to tell and we can learn a Lesson from each.
The first and most important is The Cross of Jesus. Without it and the resurrection It would be no Christianity.
All of us Start off in need of a savior and we have two options cross #2 or #3. If you don't choose Jesus, you will have the penalty of sin resting on you; choose correctly and you will have, by grace, shifted it over to Christ. The great question is this: Is your sin on you or on Christ who paid its penalty? So, you see on the hill of Calvary, there were three crosses and three men. One man died in sin, one man died to sin, one man died for sin.
So, if you chose the God Man Jesus, "The Main Essential"... now you're ready for some other Christian Essentials. Some people keep it simple and some of us dig deeper. Different strokes for different folks, the main one is to love God and to love each other.
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Post by hansen on Sept 4, 2022 7:14:44 GMT -8
I’m sorry, “friend”, but you must be a good widdle boy if you want to see God. His words not mine. His gospel certainly didn’t make it ok to be a bad widdle boy; that’s satans gospel. I assure you that the new covenant did not make a single change to the obligation for man to obey the greatest commandments, but actually gave him the ability to finally begin to fulfill them. Nor did it change this injunction in Micah 6:8: “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” ”There is NONE that is “ Good”——- No, NOT ONE! “ We cant obey those “ Great Commandments” .....in fact those Commandments were “ GIVEN” to “SHOW YOU” that you Cant Keep them .....they were given so that you would “ shut your mouth” about the delusion that you “ CAN” keep them and let them show you that you are a Sinner That MUST have a Savior.... Even Paul said that the Law was an Impossible System That, “ Neither he nor his Fathers could follow”..... and yet “YOU“ can.....some people have not learned the Firs Lesson Of The Law—- Shut Up! God didn't make us bad-all creation was created good, in fact, according to Scripture, being the very handwiork of an infintely good Creator. Our unrighteousness consists in our alienation from that Creator, and this constitues an anomaly, an injustice/disorder, in all creation. We're reconciled with Him as we begin to know and believe in the true God as revealed by His Son. That's the most basic and primary right step for man, placing him back into right stead with God. And that's why faith pleases Him so immensely. From that reconciled state, from that union, true justice or righteousness take root and begin to blossom in man. Faith is a gift of grace, and yet a gift we could refuse and walk away from-at any point in time. If we don't like the obligation to be righteous, even by virtue of being coupled with Him now, then we don't like His gospel. His light burden is still too heavy for us. The law shows us that we cannot do it, on our own, "under the law". We don't even have that capacity; we lack any righteousness by ourselves; we only have self-righteousness which is an intruder, an imposter, not the real thing at all. The gospel shows us that we can do it, however, but only with Him, by the Spirit, under grace. God did not create man to sin; we just must be in fellowship with Him or else we're lost, sick, dead, existing in a state of disorder, sin, aka the state of "original sin". “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord." Jer 31:33-34
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2022 8:08:19 GMT -8
For everyone: How many of those 10 essentials were understood by the thief on the cross?. so would it be accurate to say that the one exception becomes the rule in your paradigm ? should we also do away with the great commission? believers do not need to be baptized ? we don't need to make disciples ? I can list another dozen if needed. No, one exception does not become the rule but that's a read herring because we are discussing essentials and essentials are universal. Otheriwse they are not essential; they're just applicable some of the time in some circumstances. The word " essential" means " absolutely necessary and extremely important." If they aren't absolutely necessary, then they are not essential. They might still be extremely important but not absolutely necessary. We're not discussing essentials of a mature life, we're talking about of Christianity and Christianity is not about works or knowledge. Maturity is, but being a Christian is not. Being a Christian is about grace through faith. The being made like Christ comes afterwards. Therefore, my question is valid and op-relevant. Rhetorical questions do not answer the question. Instead of avoindantly listing another dozen how about answering the one question asked? The red herring of argumentum ad absurdum (arguments from the extremes) has been asserted as an incorrect understanding of my inquiry AND it has been introduced despite the fact most of us (if not all) were brought into the kingdom of Christ without knowing everything in this op's list. In other words, even though my question is asked using the extreme example of the thief on the cross it applies to everyone because one of the things we want to avoid (aside from the argument ad absurdum and the false equivalence of non-absolutes as essentials) is Gnositicism, or the implication certain knowledge brings or is necessary for salvation in a causal way. Yes, in many, perhaps most, ways the thief is the exception to the rule but not when it comes to essentials, those essentials must apply to all, otherwise they aren't essential. Therefore, my question is not only valid and op-relevant.... it is essential . If we're going to discuss the essentials, then we must ask ourselves what applies to everyone because if it doesn't apply to everyone then it is not essential. And, for the record, I think it would have been better to use Ephesians 4 rather than the extra-biblical source used in the op. 1-The Trinity 2-The Deity of Christ 3-The humanity of Christ 4-The gospel 5-The bodily Resurrecting/Ascension and 2nd Coming of Christ 6-Salvation by grace through faith apart from works 7-Inerrancy and Inspiration of scripture 8-Love of the brethren demonstrating the fruit of the spirit 9-Being a disciple of Christ as per the gospels and great commission. 10- The depravity of man from the fall What of these items are so essential that they apply to all Christians, including the thief on the cross, Acts 8's Ethiopian convert, the pagan jailer of Acts 16, the Jew Apollos (Acts 18), the disciples of Christ in Acts19 who knew only John's baptism, and any of those of similar experience I might have left out? Did any of these people understand the Trinity (it wasn't settled doctrine for 400 years)? Item #4 is a broad term that could be broken down into constituent necessities. It is likely everyone in the first century understood the political implications of the term "gospel," but most today haven't a clue about those things. Item #5 is actually two different items and the thief certainly understood the first part #5, at least to some degree, because he was told he'd be with Jesus after he died. Item #7 is certainly true for the first century believer but for the early Christians the "scripture" was what we call the Old Testament. It took some time for the epistolary to be recognized as scripture and Revelation hadn't been written at least for the first four decades of Christian living. Therefore #7 has specific meaning for the early believers (and, again, the doctrine of inerrancy took centuries to formalize). Where is the necessity of grace mentioned in this list? Where is the necessity of grace as THE cause of salvation? Where is the mention of faith as the vehicle through which our salvation is manifested? Don't these apply to ALL Christians? If so, then how is they were left out? Do not our doctrines (no matter our sectarian differences) all agree on essential necessity of those two points? My question is valid, op-relevant, and essential for answering the question this op asks. Which of the items in that list applied to the thief on the cross? Or..... to put in in other words...... Which of the items in this op's list are so essential they apply to all Christians - as scripture informs us (not as later extra-canonical doctrines stipulate)?
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Post by civic on Sept 4, 2022 8:24:01 GMT -8
@josheb the OT saints were saved by faith . The NT saints are saved by faith in the person and work of Christ via the gospel message . We cannot separate the Lord/ Savior/ God from His work . His Person and work go hand in hand together . Paul says in Roman’s 10 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ . Paul also says one must confess He is Lord to be saved . Lord in Romans 10 is an OT quoting referring to Jesus as YHWH.
Would you disagree and say this is not essential ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2022 8:44:12 GMT -8
@josheb the OT saints were saved by faith . The NT saints are saved by faith in the person and work of Christ via the gospel message . We cannot separate the Lord/ Savior/ God from His work . His Person and work go hand in hand together . Paul says in Roman’s 10 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ . Paul also says one must confess He is Lord to be saved . Lord in Romans 10 is an OT quoting referring to Jesus as YHWH. Would you disagree and say this is not essential ? I think those first few items should be included in the list of Christianity's essentials and they were not. Paul's comments about hearing should be understood via whole scripture, not a proof-texted selective use of a few lines in one epistle. I recommend starting with Isaiah 6:9 and Matthew 13:14 because that prophecy is used by Jesus in every gospel and by the NT writers Luke, Peter, and Paul. Hearing, knowledge, understanding, seeing, perceiving and more are all gifts from God. They are not asserted in scripture as inherently existing physiological or psychological faculties. That would be a non-essential anthropomorphizing of scripture. Yes, one must confess Jesus as Lord, but I don't see that on the list, either. I don't mean to sound impertinent but this post to which I now reply is proving my point: essentials are applicable to all, this list is missing several essentials, and many of the items included are not essentials. There's also a certain irony because the opening statement is attributed to our buddy Augustine but if memory serves me correctly that's due to a guy named Grotius assigning that attribution. Schaff says it Meldenius (both men lived in the 1600s). Augustine was what we might call an early-Catholic (because much of RCCism was not established in his day), Grotius was a humanist, and Meldenius was Lutheran. Most of us in BAM are Protestants who are going to have plenty of diversity and differences or disagreements with all three of these men and what was considered "essential" in their day. I, personally, would venture to say we improved upon their condition through the aid of the Holy Spirit driving a few added centuries of examination, discussion/debate, and illumination. We might ask, " What did Augustine consider essential" because that would be the context of his statement were in fact the one originating that metric. Would Augustine be answering the question doctrinally (as the op did) or more personally (as you have in the post above)? Maybe we should answer the question from our own perspective based on a correct definition of essentials and the manner in which scripture informs us.
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Post by civic on Sept 4, 2022 8:59:55 GMT -8
@josheb the OT saints were saved by faith . The NT saints are saved by faith in the person and work of Christ via the gospel message . We cannot separate the Lord/ Savior/ God from His work . His Person and work go hand in hand together . Paul says in Roman’s 10 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ . Paul also says one must confess He is Lord to be saved . Lord in Romans 10 is an OT quoting referring to Jesus as YHWH. Would you disagree and say this is not essential ? I think those first few items should be included in the list of Christianity's essentials and they were not. Paul's comments about hearing should be understood via whole scripture, not a proof-texted selective use of a few lines in one epistle. I recommend starting with Isaiah 6:9 and Matthew 13:14 because that prophecy is used by Jesus in every gospel and by the NT writers Luke, Peter, and Paul. Hearing, knowledge, understanding, seeing, perceiving and more are all gifts from God. They are not asserted in scripture as inherently existing physiological or psychological faculties. That would be a non-essential anthropomorphizing of scripture. Yes, one must confess Jesus as Lord, but I don't see that on the list, either. I don't mean to sound impertinent but this post to which I now reply is proving my point: essentials are applicable to all, this list is missing several essentials, and many of the items included are not essentials. There's also a certain irony because the opening statement is attributed to our buddy Augustine but if memory serves me correctly that's due to a guy named Grotius assigning that attribution. Schaff says it Meldenius (both men lived in the 1600s). Augustine was what we might call an early-Catholic (because much of RCCism was not established in his day), Grotius was a humanist, and Meldenius was Lutheran. Most of us in BAM are Protestants who are going to have plenty of diversity and differences or disagreements with all three of these men and what was considered "essential" in their day. I, personally, would venture to say we improved upon their condition through the aid of the Holy Spirit driving a few added centuries of examination, discussion/debate, and illumination. We might ask, " What did Augustine consider essential" because that would be the context of his statement were in fact the one originating that metric. Would Augustine be answering the question doctrinally (as the op did) or more personally (as you have in the post above)? Maybe we should answer the question from our own perspective based on a correct definition of essentials and the manner in which scripture informs us. Better yet brother what do you consider essential. It might be easier asking what you believe.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2022 13:21:54 GMT -8
I think those first few items should be included in the list of Christianity's essentials and they were not. Paul's comments about hearing should be understood via whole scripture, not a proof-texted selective use of a few lines in one epistle. I recommend starting with Isaiah 6:9 and Matthew 13:14 because that prophecy is used by Jesus in every gospel and by the NT writers Luke, Peter, and Paul. Hearing, knowledge, understanding, seeing, perceiving and more are all gifts from God. They are not asserted in scripture as inherently existing physiological or psychological faculties. That would be a non-essential anthropomorphizing of scripture. Yes, one must confess Jesus as Lord, but I don't see that on the list, either. I don't mean to sound impertinent but this post to which I now reply is proving my point: essentials are applicable to all, this list is missing several essentials, and many of the items included are not essentials. There's also a certain irony because the opening statement is attributed to our buddy Augustine but if memory serves me correctly that's due to a guy named Grotius assigning that attribution. Schaff says it Meldenius (both men lived in the 1600s). Augustine was what we might call an early-Catholic (because much of RCCism was not established in his day), Grotius was a humanist, and Meldenius was Lutheran. Most of us in BAM are Protestants who are going to have plenty of diversity and differences or disagreements with all three of these men and what was considered "essential" in their day. I, personally, would venture to say we improved upon their condition through the aid of the Holy Spirit driving a few added centuries of examination, discussion/debate, and illumination. We might ask, " What did Augustine consider essential" because that would be the context of his statement were in fact the one originating that metric. Would Augustine be answering the question doctrinally (as the op did) or more personally (as you have in the post above)? Maybe we should answer the question from our own perspective based on a correct definition of essentials and the manner in which scripture informs us. Better yet brother what do you consider essential. It might be easier asking what you believe. Sure, but 1) not my op, and 2) no shifting onuses , and 3) you'll have to clarify the question before it can be answered. Do you mean doctrinal essentials, experiential/relational essentials, or something else? Remember: my perspective would be that a person can be and usually is saved without a lot of knowledge of doctrine. Therefore, when I say grace is an essential, I don't mean to imply a person has to know and understand the grace s/he has received when saved but they must have that grace to be saved. I'm not even sure most understand the whole nature of their conversion but they do have to have some understanding they are changed. And, of course, a big pile of faith is essential. Faith in God, faith in and of Christ, faith in their change, faith in the promises (even though I wouldn't say most converts know all that has been promised them). And, since it's been the subject of many of my recent posts, I would say some experience of covenant (whether intellectually understood or not) is essential. Don't think we can be Christians without regeneration and indwelling, either. Doctrinally, things like justification and sanctification are essential. And, for now, I'd say the person of Jesus is essential because Christianity is not about a philosophy or teaching but about a person. All of the things just listed are found solely in the person of Christ (understanding his work on our behalf and his ontological, existential, and teleological identity are inseparable). In no particular order... Grace, Covenant, Promise, Faith, Conversion (regeneration), Sanctification, Justification, Indwelling, Destiny, Jesus If a doctrinal list is wanted, I can provide that, too. I would include at least some of the items on the list, such as 2, 3, and 6.
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Post by civic on Sept 4, 2022 14:40:24 GMT -8
@josheb maybe two categories .
1- what are the essential things to saving faith 2- what are the essential doctrines that cannot be denied after becoming a believer. What are the ones you and I must not deny that would place us outside of Christ.
Thanks !
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2022 15:05:21 GMT -8
@josheb maybe two categories . 1- what are the essential things to saving faith 2- what are the essential doctrines that cannot be denied after becoming a believer. What are the ones you and I must not deny that would place us outside of Christ. Thanks ! Your op. What do you think? I believe I have already answered the first part. I'll have to come back later to address the doctrinal list because I'm being summoned for dinner. Apparently, we're going out for dinner and I'm buying .
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Post by rickstudies on Sept 4, 2022 18:47:49 GMT -8
God didn't make us bad-all creation was created good, in fact, according to Scripture, being the very handwiork of an infintely good Creator. Our unrighteousness consists in our alienation from that Creator, and this constitues an anomaly, an injustice/disorder, in all creation. We're reconciled with Him as we begin to know and believe in the true God as revealed by His Son. That's the most basic and primary right step for man, placing him back into right stead with God. And that's why faith pleases Him so immensely. From that reconciled state, from that union, true justice or righteousness take root and begin to blossom in man. Faith is a gift of grace, and yet a gift we could refuse and walk away from-at any point in time. If we don't like the obligation to be righteous, even by virtue of being coupled with Him now, then we don't like His gospel. His light burden is still too heavy for us. The law shows us that we cannot do it, on our own, "under the law". We don't even have that capacity; we lack any righteousness by ourselves; we only have self-righteousness which is an intruder, an imposter, not the real thing at all. The gospel shows us that we can do it, however, but only with Him, by the Spirit, under grace. God did not create man to sin; we just must be in fellowship with Him or else we're lost, sick, dead, existing in a state of disorder, sin, aka the state of "original sin". “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord." Jer 31:33-34 This passage of scripture has not been fulfilled yet nor is it applicable to any of your remarks.
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