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Post by Aeliana on Sept 3, 2022 12:16:53 GMT -8
Before we can proceed any further with our discussion, we need to grasp one important point. What do we mean by salvation? The question we are addressing in this Thread is whether or not salvation can be lost. We would do well to understand exactly what it is we are arguing cannot be lost!
Sin brought about the need for man’s salvation. Sin is like a genetic disease that, once introduced into the human race, affected everyone thereafter:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned. —Romans 5:12
The “one man” here is Adam. His sin poisoned the human race. Every man, woman, and child since Adam was born a sinner: Bad to the bone!
For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners. —Romans 5:19
Sin has contaminated our very nature. Man is born with an inclination toward evil, a bias away from good. If you don’t believe me, ask any preschool worker or kindergarten teacher. Children never need a lesson in being bad. It comes naturally. Some are worse than others. But each child in his or her own way eventually demonstrates a defiant self–centeredness willing to challenge any and all authority.
The combination of our inherent sinfulness and our ensuing acts of sin puts us in bad standing with God. The Bible goes so far as to say we are condemned:
And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation.—Romans 5:16
The term condemn is a legal term meaning “to declare guilty.” We are each guilty of sin—resulting from our relation with Adam—and sins—resulting from our personal disobedience.
Just as sin caused Adam and Eve to be separated from God in the beginning, so sin results in man’s separation from God now and potentially for eternity. Paul writes,
For the wages of sin is death. —Romans 6:23
And again,
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.—Romans 3:23
These familiar passages say a great deal about the consequences of sin. When the Bible speaks of death, it does not refer to annihilation. Nowhere does the Scripture teach the annihilation of the soul. Everyone will live forever, somewhere. Death means separation, specifically, separation from God.
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Post by Aeliana on Sept 3, 2022 12:47:49 GMT -8
So what is salvation?A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The deliverance, by the grace of God, from eternal punishment for sin which is granted to those who accept by faith God’s conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.” Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12) and is dependent on God alone for provision, assurance, and security.
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Post by rickstudies on Sept 3, 2022 16:46:30 GMT -8
It appears, I guess you, believe faith saves. Therefore what happens if one casts aside his faith in Jesus, will he still be saved anyway, (Heb 3:12; 1 Tim 5:12)? Appearances and guesses can be deceiving... But the Bible actually has a clear and precise answer to your question. Who art thou who judgest another man’s servant? To his own master he standeth or falleth; yea, he shall be held up, for God is able to make him stand. Romans 14:3 At first, this Scripture tells me and it's not our call to judge another's salvation. Whether they stand or fall. But if they're truly saved God will make them stand and not fall. They may temporarily leave the flock, but the good shepherd will leave the 99 go and retrieve that one lost lamb and bring him home. Romans 14:3 is telling us that God is able to hold someone up when their own strength and ability fails, when circumstances seem hopeless and even when a believer falls short in their performance. |
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Post by mailmandan on Sept 4, 2022 3:36:46 GMT -8
PILGRAM said: There's a reason why he says "for" after the warning not to forsake the assembling of the brethren. The willful sin is rejection of Christ.Perhaps if you get over yourself and realize that your sin is pretty plain to those who have not rejected Christ, you might find the humility to find a fellowship. But as long as you forsake the assembling of the brethren you will remain in sin. And that is how all Judaizers are—they excuse their own sin and try to hammer everyone else about theirs. That is the very reason John wrote 1 john, and Paul addresses it heavily in Galatians. berean-apologetics.boards.net/thread/69/top-controversial-topics-list?page=13 |
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Post by Parker on Sept 4, 2022 4:00:02 GMT -8
It appears, I guess you, believe faith saves. Therefore what happens if one casts aside his faith in Jesus, will he still be saved anyway, (Heb 3:12; 1 Tim 5:12)? Appearances and guesses can be deceiving... But the Bible actually has a clear and precise answer to your question. Who art thou who judgest another man’s servant? To his own master he standeth or falleth; yea, he shall be held up, for God is able to make him stand. Romans 14:3 At first, this Scripture tells me and it's not our call to judge another's salvation. Whether they stand or fall. But if they're truly saved God will make them stand and not fall. They may temporarily leave the flock, but the good shepherd will leave the 99 go and retrieve that one lost lamb and bring him home. Matthew Henry's Commentary Romans 14:1-6 Differences of opinion prevailed even among the immediate followers of Christ and their disciples. Nor did St. Paul attempt to end them. Compelled assent to any doctrine, or conformity to outward observances without being convinced, would be hypocritical and of no avail. Attempts for producing absolute oneness of mind among Christians would be useless. Let not Christian fellowship be disturbed with strifes of words. It will be good for us to ask ourselves, when tempted to disdain and blame our brethren; Has not God owned them? and if he has, dare I disown them? Let not the Christian who uses his liberty, despise his weak brother as ignorant and superstitious. Let not the scrupulous believer find fault with his brother, for God accepted him, without regarding the distinctions of meats. We usurp the place of God, when we take upon us thus to judge the thoughts and intentions of others, which are out of our view. The case as to the observance of days was much the same. Those who knew that all these things were done away by Christ's coming, took no notice of the festivals of the Jews. But it is not enough that our consciences consent to what we do; it is necessary that it be certified from the word of God. Take heed of acting against a doubting conscience. We are all apt to make our own views the standard of truth, to deem things certain which to others appear doubtful. Thus Christians often despise or condemn each other, about doubtful matters of no moment. A thankful regard to God, the Author and Giver of all our mercies, sanctifies and sweetens them. |
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Post by Obadiah on Sept 4, 2022 4:40:31 GMT -8
Paul to use the term adoption to describe the process by which God establishes a relationship with a man or woman who trusts Christ as the Savior:
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
Romans 8:15–16
Notice how Paul capitalizes on the relational value of adoption. We are encouraged to think of our heavenly Father in the most intimate way, as a Daddy.
Adoption in the ancient Hebrew culture wasn't something they took on lightly. It usually occurred if the family had no male heir to continue the family name. What's interesting is once they adopted it was final. They could not unadopt or disinherit the adopted child. An adopted son is designated their heir. If a natural child should subsequently be born to the couple, he would be chief heir and the adopted son would be second to him. But he could not be disinherited.
And neither can we.
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Post by Redeemed on Sept 4, 2022 5:17:52 GMT -8
Paul to use the term adoption to describe the process by which God establishes a relationship with a man or woman who trusts Christ as the Savior: For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. Romans 8:15–16 Notice how Paul capitalizes on the relational value of adoption. We are encouraged to think of our heavenly Father in the most intimate way, as a Daddy. Adoption in the ancient Hebrew culture wasn't something they took on lightly. It usually occurred if the family had no male heir to continue the family name. What's interesting is once they adopted it was final. They could not unadopt or disinherit the adopted child. An adopted son is designated their heir. If a natural child should subsequently be born to the couple, he would be chief heir and the adopted son would be second to him. But he could not be disinherited. And neither can we. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will. —Ephesians 1:3–5, emphasis mine God chose to adopt you as His child before the foundation of the world. Why? For one reason and one reason only: He wanted to. That is what Paul means by the phrase, “according to the kind intention of His will.” No one forced Him. God wanted you as His child. God did not send Christ to die because He felt sorry for you. He sacrificed His only begotten Son so that He could make you His adopted child. I have heard of many unwanted pregnancies; I have never heard of an unwanted adoption. Couples adopt children because they want children. God adopted you for the same reason. He knew your shortcomings. He knew your inconsistencies. He knew all about you. But He wanted you just the same. |
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Post by gomer on Sept 4, 2022 5:51:57 GMT -8
It appears, I guess you, believe faith saves. Therefore what happens if one casts aside his faith in Jesus, will he still be saved anyway, (Heb 3:12; 1 Tim 5:12)? Appearances and guesses can be deceiving... But the Bible actually has a clear and precise answer to your question. Who art thou who judgest another man’s servant? To his own master he standeth or falleth; yea, he shall be held up, for God is able to make him stand. Romans 14:3 At first, this Scripture tells me and it's not our call to judge another's salvation. Whether they stand or fall. But if they're truly saved God will make them stand and not fall. They may temporarily leave the flock, but the good shepherd will leave the 99 go and retrieve that one lost lamb and bring him home. The context in Rom 14 does NOT condemn ALL judging. This issue is about judging in matters of opinion. Nothing wrong to eat meat offered to idols but if A Christian thinks it is wrong, then other Christians are not to judge him over that matter. So judgment in matters of opinion is not allowed but other judgments are allowed. Jesus said to judge righteous judgement. Two chapters later in Rom 16:17 Paul said to mark them which cause divisions. This means there MUST be judgement taking place over doctrinal issues and sin but not over matters of opinion. How can one beware of false prophets apart from judging them to be false? (Mt 7:15)? How do we know a man is an evil worker apart from judging his works are evil? (Phil 3:2). How can it be known that a Christian is lost and needs to be sought unless he is first judged to be lost? (Lk 15) Secondly, the individual in Rom 14:3-4 was not lost, he was NOT a backslidden apostate in need of restoration. Rom 14:4 is not dealing with finding and restoring a lost person so it has nothing to do with OSAS. Again, it is not a sin to think it is wrong to eat meats offered to idols so the Christian of Rom 14 is not lost in need of salvation. Therefore when it says he will be made to stand, it means on judgement day he will be approved of God even though he believed it is wrong to eat meat offered to idols. Therefore the context of Rom 14 has nothing to do with a lost Christian, nothing to with God making sure Christian who becomes lost will be saved for again the Christian in Rom 14:3-4 was not a lost apostate. Lastly, the parable of the lost sheep was Jesus condemning Pharisees. The Pharisees would go to a lot of work and trouble to find a lost animal but not to find a lost man. Jesus is showing the importance to go and find the lost. Jesus left heaven to come to earth to find the lost. That's how important it is to Christ to find the lost. It therefore is the necessary and important responsibility of the church to go and find those who wander away and become lost and "restore such a one" (Gal 6:1). " Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20). Sometimes lost sheep cannot be found and restored "And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray." (Matt 18:13) Therefore a Christian can lose his faith and become lost. He must be judged to be lost to know that he is in fact lost and needs to be sought to be converted and restored. And sometimes he cannot be found and will remain lost. |
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Post by Obadiah on Sept 4, 2022 5:55:16 GMT -8
Paul to use the term adoption to describe the process by which God establishes a relationship with a man or woman who trusts Christ as the Savior: For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. Romans 8:15–16 Notice how Paul capitalizes on the relational value of adoption. We are encouraged to think of our heavenly Father in the most intimate way, as a Daddy. Adoption in the ancient Hebrew culture wasn't something they took on lightly. It usually occurred if the family had no male heir to continue the family name. What's interesting is once they adopted it was final. They could not unadopt or disinherit the adopted child. An adopted son is designated their heir. If a natural child should subsequently be born to the couple, he would be chief heir and the adopted son would be second to him. But he could not be disinherited. And neither can we. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will. —Ephesians 1:3–5, emphasis mine God chose to adopt you as His child before the foundation of the world. Why? For one reason and one reason only: He wanted to. That is what Paul means by the phrase, “according to the kind intention of His will.” No one forced Him. God wanted you as His child. God did not send Christ to die because He felt sorry for you. He sacrificed His only begotten Son so that He could make you His adopted child. I have heard of many unwanted pregnancies; I have never heard of an unwanted adoption. Couples adopt children because they want children. God adopted you for the same reason. He knew your shortcomings. He knew your inconsistencies. He knew all about you. But He wanted you just the same. If our salvation can be lost, our adoption into the family of God is not permanent. We can be unadopted, so to speak. Such a process, however, is never described or even alluded to in the New Testament. Never once are believers threatened with losing membership in the family of God. Jesus taught just the opposite. As far as He was and is concerned, adoption is forever! |
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Post by Obadiah on Sept 4, 2022 6:03:21 GMT -8
It's in the Bible!
Luke 15:3–24
So he told them this parable: 4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
8 “Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it?9 And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost.’10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
11 And he said, “There was a man who had two sons; 12 and the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that falls to me.’ And he divided his living between them. 13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took his journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in loose living. 14 And when he had spent everything, a great famine arose in that country, and he began to be in want. 15 So he went and joined himself to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would gladly have fed on the pods that the swine ate; and no one gave him anything. 17 But when he came to himself he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, but I perish here with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; treat me as one of your hired servants.” ’ 20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was yet at a distance, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet; 23 and bring the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and make merry; 24 for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to make merry.
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Post by Obadiah on Sept 4, 2022 6:08:39 GMT -8
Culturally speaking, what Jesus described in the parable of the lost son was a worst-case scenario. The boy could not have been more disrespectful. He could not have been any more insensitive. And he certainly could not have been a greater embarrassment to the family.
No one would have blamed the father if he had refused to allow the boy to join up as one of his hired men. The son didn’t deserve a second chance, and he knew it. He recognized how foolish it would be to return with the notion of being allowed back into the family. That was not even a consideration. In his mind, he had forfeited all rights to sonship. He was of the conviction that by abandoning his father and wasting his inheritance, he had relinquished his position in the family.
His father, however, did not see things that way at all. In his mind, once a son, always a son. The father’s first emotion as he saw the son returning wasn’t anger. It wasn’t even disappointment. He felt compassion for him. Why? Because the young man was his son!
The father said: “This son of mine was dead and has come to life again” (Luke 15:24). He did not say, “This was my son, and now he is my son again.” On the contrary, there is no hint that the relationship was ever broken, only the fellowship. By “dead” Jesus meant “separated.” That was clearly a figure of speech since the son did not physically die in the parable.
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Post by hansen on Sept 4, 2022 7:05:15 GMT -8
I never said I love God with all my heart. I’ve said that’s man’s purpose and therefore the Christians true goal, by which sin is excluded and righteousness is perfected. You’ve been shown the true gospel; you refuse to drink from the font of wisdom. That’s your choice. Right now I’m buried in a busy time of year so probably won’t be offering more for awhile. Good luck, God bless, hasta la vista for now, cowboy. All righty then, when you get the time to share some more about the "true gospel" I`ll be all ears. I guess I missed the bus on this one. Just go back and read. |
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Post by hansen on Sept 4, 2022 8:27:09 GMT -8
The problem with expecting someone to accept your opinion is tha lack of any kind of proof text. You are giving your opinion of what the church says which is by definition heresay. I would be interested in the suprior doctrine but if scripture is absent you could maybe back it up with some historical references. even if he had historical perspectives. apart from scripture. It is meaningless. The people in power write history.. they also delete history if it does not support them And people also ignore history, ignore truth, to their own demise. |
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Post by rickstudies on Sept 4, 2022 12:49:07 GMT -8
All righty then, when you get the time to share some more about the "true gospel" I`ll be all ears. I guess I missed the bus on this one. Just go back and read. The format for this website makes reviewing old posts a chore. I have reviewed a few of them in spite of this difficulty and due to a lack of references for scriptures and historical claims I am not going to comment on them. Apologetics requires proof text. It`s not reasonable to expect people to accept your opinion on the Catholic religeon if all you are going to give me is a claim that the church says this or the church says that. Post something you believe will hold up under scrutiny since you are claiming to promote the true gospel, superior to what I and others on this board believe. |
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Post by hansen on Sept 4, 2022 13:42:18 GMT -8
The format for this website makes reviewing old posts a chore. I have reviewed a few of them in spite of this difficulty and due to a lack of references for scriptures and historical claims I am not going to comment on them. Apologetics requires proof text. It`s not reasonable to expect people to accept your opinion on the Catholic religeon if all you are going to give me is a claim that the church says this or the church says that. Post something you believe will hold up under scrutiny since you are claiming to promote the true gospel, superior to what I and others on this board believe. And I'm not going to go back and repeat. I've offered proof texts galore already. But, ok, I went ahead and did some of the work anyway. Aside from offering to yourself and others on this thread prooftexts as well as some historical background, you can read the second post on this page, as it pertains directly to the OP: berean-apologetics.boards.net/thread/69/top-controversial-topics-list?page=16Besides that I can also articulate the meaning of the gospel in my own words, because I understand it. |
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