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Post by rickstudies on Sept 4, 2022 13:58:14 GMT -8
The format for this website makes reviewing old posts a chore. I have reviewed a few of them in spite of this difficulty and due to a lack of references for scriptures and historical claims I am not going to comment on them. Apologetics requires proof text. It`s not reasonable to expect people to accept your opinion on the Catholic religeon if all you are going to give me is a claim that the church says this or the church says that. Post something you believe will hold up under scrutiny since you are claiming to promote the true gospel, superior to what I and others on this board believe. And I'm not going to go back and repeat. I've offered proof texts galore already. I saw virtually none in the posts I reviewed. You quoted from Jeremiah 31 earlier today, taking an unfulfilled prophecy of the future out of context and trying to apply it to something it isnt refering to. Not a good example of superior truth. |
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Post by rickstudies on Sept 4, 2022 15:51:36 GMT -8
The format for this website makes reviewing old posts a chore. I have reviewed a few of them in spite of this difficulty and due to a lack of references for scriptures and historical claims I am not going to comment on them. Apologetics requires proof text. It`s not reasonable to expect people to accept your opinion on the Catholic religeon if all you are going to give me is a claim that the church says this or the church says that. Post something you believe will hold up under scrutiny since you are claiming to promote the true gospel, superior to what I and others on this board believe. And I'm not going to go back and repeat. I've offered proof texts galore already. But, ok, I went ahead and did some of the work anyway. Aside from offering to yourself and others on this thread prooftexts as well as some historical background, you can read the second post on this page, as it pertains directly to the OP: berean-apologetics.boards.net/thread/69/top-controversial-topics-list?page=16Besides that I can also articulate the meaning of the gospel in my own words, because I understand it. Editing in addon comments and posting a link to an old post is not doing the work. Likewise putting what you think the meaning of the gospel is into your own words without posting references is not superior articulating of doctrine. I`m getting desperate here though  So i`m going to take what you are willing to give me and go answer the post in the link. Thanks for helping me out here. |
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Post by rickstudies on Sept 4, 2022 16:19:33 GMT -8
So, one at a time, let's take a look at your loss of salvation proof texts.
And again, it is a false argument to say that those who believe in the Eternal Security taught in Scripture think they have license for sin or that they discount our responsibility to live holy before God.
So present your first and best loss of salvation verse or passage, and let's examine it and see why it is referring to unbelievers rather than believers, and that you are misunderstanding it.
God bless.
Ok?? And how responsible are we to live holy? Can we? Or are all our works filthy rags? And are we responsible such that, if we don't live holy lives, we may not gain eternal life? Those who believe that righteousness is merely imputed to or declared of man more easily fall into the OSAS fallacy because, if righteousness is no longer connected to...well, actual, personal righteousness, then there's no righteousness to compromise and lose by sinning-and no righteousness with which to overcome sin anyway. Again, the new covenant is not about the fact that man cannot possibly be righteous, rather it's about the fact that man cannot possibly be righteous apart from God. Man was never created to be a sinner. Adam caused the separation between God and humanity that guarantees sinfulness in man. Jesus reconciles us with God again. “If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17 “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7 “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13 “…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21 "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:22-23 "And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4 “Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13 “Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14 “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24 "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:16-21 “For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matt 6:14-15 “If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22 "If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame." Heb 6:4-6 “You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 11:19-22 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:10 Lots of contingency there. I would say your presentation isn`t superior because here you give me a laundry list of scriptures but you don`t explain what they are saying to me. I can see a theme of a life of good deeds and righteous living and you appear to believe these things provide the means to overcome sin. Yet you cited Isaiah and implied that our righteousness do not do much for us, filthy rags Isaiah said. Let me bail you out of your contradiction. The filthy rag righteousness is the rightousness of backslidden Jews and sinners. Isaiah was not talking about the rightousness of the rightious. So maybe you could be onto something here but this collection of verses needs some further articulation because I still dunno what you`re getting at or how any of this makes Catholicism superior in doctrine. |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Sept 4, 2022 21:27:48 GMT -8
I never said I love God with all my heart. I’ve said that’s man’s purpose and therefore the Christians true goal, by which sin is excluded and righteousness is perfected. You’ve been shown the true gospel; you refuse to drink from the font of wisdom. That’s your choice. Right now I’m buried in a busy time of year so probably won’t be offering more for awhile. Good luck, God bless, hasta la vista for now, cowboy. Your so - called “ font of wisdom” is a False and Perverted Gospel .....it came from Hell. How does talking to someone like this serve God in any meaningful way? I thought everybody here had nobler goals than remarks like this. Where`s the dialogue? I`ve thrown down the gaunlet for conversation with Modalists, Judaists, and now Catholicism and in each case my potential dialogue partner has been run off because of being talked to uncharitably. Run them off? That’s my goal! When it came to Legalists and Spreaders Of Leaven, It was Paul's clear verdict to “ Cast them Out!” ....He did not say be “ nicely-nice” to them.....he did not say to Beg them to see the Truth.....He never said to try to Persuade them—— In fact,Paul never even said to PRAY for them! He said to kick them out because he knew that “ A little Leaven leavenith the whole Batch! i Don’t have all that much in common with God—- I am way too flawed — but I got “ ONE” thing.....I HATE Leaven and SO DOES GOD......it destroyed many of the Churches that Paul founded , and it will destroy this place also if you don’t have the courage to confront it.... I don't have the power to “ Cast Out” Anybody in here like Paul would.....what I “ CAN” do is use Scripture to reveal Ignorance and have these “ Poor Students Of The Word” endure the Thing That God warned these types about....He said that they would “ Stand Ashamed” because of their Biblical Ignorance..... I just try to play my little part to hurry that process along...Its kinda like , “ If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the Kitchen”......Hopefully, Some “ Heat” in here will drive some from the Kitchen......You think that this does not sound very “ Jesus- Like?”.....Go Read the Scriptures—- The 100% “ Sweet and Lovable Jesus” is a Myth..... ” CAST OUT the Bondwoman ( the symbolic Legalist) and her son” . |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Sept 4, 2022 21:36:07 GMT -8
Therefore a Christian can lose his faith and become lost. He must be judged to be lost to know that he is in fact lost and needs to be sought to be converted and restored. And sometimes he cannot be found and will remain lost.
“Though we might be Unfaithful—- He REMAINS Faithful”
“ HE will finish the good work that HE strarted”
“It is HE that will Keep you Strong and will present your as BLAMELESS on the Day Of Judgement”
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Post by hansen on Sept 5, 2022 6:12:42 GMT -8
And I'm not going to go back and repeat. I've offered proof texts galore already. But, ok, I went ahead and did some of the work anyway. Aside from offering to yourself and others on this thread prooftexts as well as some historical background, you can read the second post on this page, as it pertains directly to the OP: berean-apologetics.boards.net/thread/69/top-controversial-topics-list?page=16Besides that I can also articulate the meaning of the gospel in my own words, because I understand it. Editing in addon comments and posting a link to an old post is not doing the work. Likewise putting what you think the meaning of the gospel is into your own words without posting references is not superior articulating of doctrine. I`m getting desperate here though So i`m going to take what you are willing to give me and go answer the post in the link. Thanks for helping me out here. I edited well before you responded, and so I'm not sure why editing, in order to show that what you claim is missing, isn't missing, in not doing the work |
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Post by rickstudies on Sept 5, 2022 6:21:50 GMT -8
How does talking to someone like this serve God in any meaningful way? I thought everybody here had nobler goals than remarks like this. Where`s the dialogue? I`ve thrown down the gaunlet for conversation with Modalists, Judaists, and now Catholicism and in each case my potential dialogue partner has been run off because of being talked to uncharitably. Run them off? That’s my goal! When it came to Legalists and Spreaders Of Leaven, It was Paul's clear verdict to “ Cast them Out!” ....He did not say be “ nicely-nice” to them.....he did not say to Beg them to see the Truth.....He never said to try to Persuade them—— In fact,Paul never even said to PRAY for them! He said to kick them out because he knew that “ A little Leaven leavenith the whole Batch! i Don’t have all that much in common with God—- I am way too flawed — but I got “ ONE” thing.....I HATE Leaven and SO DOES GOD......it destroyed many of the Churches that Paul founded , and it will destroy this place also if you don’t have the courage to confront it.... I don't have the power to “ Cast Out” Anybody in here like Paul would.....what I “ CAN” do is use Scripture to reveal Ignorance and have these “ Poor Students Of The Word” endure the Thing That God warned these types about....He said that they would “ Stand Ashamed” because of their Biblical Ignorance..... I just try to play my little part to hurry that process along...Its kinda like , “ If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the Kitchen”......Hopefully, Some “ Heat” in here will drive some from the Kitchen......You think that this does not sound very “ Jesus- Like?”.....Go Read the Scriptures—- The 100% “ Sweet and Lovable Jesus” is a Myth..... ” CAST OUT the Bondwoman ( the symbolic Legalist) and her son” . Jesus said "love your enemies" and was called a friend of sinners. This is just a place to have a dialogue with people who have opinions that differ. There`s no point in having the forum if we just want to talk to people who have the same beliefs we do. I dont need the internet to do that. You are also breaking rules everyone has been asked to abide by which is no way to display Christianity. Everyone else can`t be expected to be civil if you are going to go around and villify everybody who disagrees with you. |
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Post by rickstudies on Sept 5, 2022 6:30:01 GMT -8
Editing in addon comments and posting a link to an old post is not doing the work. Likewise putting what you think the meaning of the gospel is into your own words without posting references is not superior articulating of doctrine. I`m getting desperate here though So i`m going to take what you are willing to give me and go answer the post in the link. Thanks for helping me out here. I edited well before you responded, and so I'm not sure why editing, in order to show that what you claim is missing, isn't missing, in not doing the work Let`s move on. I appriciate you coming back to have a discussion. I know it`s not easy when you are outnumbered as you are here. |
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Post by hansen on Sept 5, 2022 6:43:28 GMT -8
Ok?? And how responsible are we to live holy? Can we? Or are all our works filthy rags? And are we responsible such that, if we don't live holy lives, we may not gain eternal life? Those who believe that righteousness is merely imputed to or declared of man more easily fall into the OSAS fallacy because, if righteousness is no longer connected to...well, actual, personal righteousness, then there's no righteousness to compromise and lose by sinning-and no righteousness with which to overcome sin anyway. Again, the new covenant is not about the fact that man cannot possibly be righteous, rather it's about the fact that man cannot possibly be righteous apart from God. Man was never created to be a sinner. Adam caused the separation between God and humanity that guarantees sinfulness in man. Jesus reconciles us with God again. “If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17 “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7 “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13 “…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21 "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:22-23 "And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4 “Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13 “Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14 “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24 "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:16-21 “For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matt 6:14-15 “If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22 "If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame." Heb 6:4-6 “You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 11:19-22 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:10 Lots of contingency there. I would say your presentation isn`t superior because here you give me a laundry list of scriptures but you don`t explain what they are saying to me. I can see a theme of a life of good deeds and righteous living and you appear to believe these things provide the means to overcome sin. Yet you cited Isaiah and implied that our righteousness do not do much for us, filthy rags Isaiah said. Let me bail you out of your contradiction. The filthy rag righteousness is the rightousness of backslidden Jews and sinners. Isaiah was not talking about the rightousness of the rightious. So maybe you could be onto something here but this collection of verses needs some further articulation because I still dunno what you`re getting at or how any of this makes Catholicism superior in doctrine. Yes, you're right about Isaiah referring only to the wicked in that passage-and yet it's said that Paul is paraphrasing Isaiah's concepts in Rom 3 as well as conflating them with others all for the purpose in any case of demonstrating that all fall short. And those who maintain that no personal righteousness is possible or in any case required in order to gain eternal life constantly point to Isaiah 64 and Rom 3 to prove that there's nothing we can do, no cooperation we can offer, to work out our salvation-we're just plain bad. But the true gospel is all about the fact that the law cannot jsutify us, but God can. And that, once freely justifed, meaning more than being declared to be just but actually given righeousness/justice from Him, that we are still not forced to cooperate-we can still say no and turn back away at any point. Grace is resistible IOW, as opposed to being irresistible as some theologies teach. Man's will is involved and he can participate in God's work, beginning with accepting and acting upon the gift of faith, or not. So my question to you was, "How responsible are we to live holy?" Holiness only comes from God. Faith, hope, and love only come from God as a seed. But must they be embraced, nutured, challeneged and grown? Must we walk in the light He's given in order to see Him in the next life? Or is that a non-option for a believer since, as some maintain, righteousness is somehow guaranteed for them? So I whether or not one believes that 'all fall short', which they do, I wasn't aserting that we must continue to fall short-just the opposite. The fact that you picked up on the theme of righteousness being demanded in order in order to gain eternal life shows that the verses quoted could at least serve to carry that message on their own. And that message is true. God gives us righteousness; now we must walk in it, only possible to the extent that we choose to remain in Him. I wish they had post numbers but the 2nd post on this page explains it better: berean-apologetics.boards.net/thread/69/top-controversial-topics-list?page=3 |
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Post by rickstudies on Sept 5, 2022 7:04:27 GMT -8
Yes, you're right about Isaiah referring only to the wicked in that passage-and yet it's said that Paul is paraphrasing Isaiah's concepts in Rom 3 as well as conflating them with others all for the purpose in any case of demonstrating that all fall short. And those who maintain that no personal righteousness is possible or in any case required in order to gain eternal life constantly point to Isaiah 64 and Rom 3 to prove that there's nothing we can do, no cooperation we can offer, to work out our salvation-we're just plain bad. But the true gospel is all about the fact that the law cannot jsutify us, but God can. And that, once freely justifed, meaning more than being declared to be just but actually given righeousness/justice from Him, that we are still not forced to cooperate-we can still say no and turn back away at any point. Grace is resistible IOW, as opposed to being irresistible as some theologies teach. Man's will is involved and he can participate in God's work, beginning with accepting and acting upon the gift of faith, or not. As Paul teaches us it is God that justifies. Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. When we get saved we are washed by the Holy Spirit. So the good works of a saved person are purified and acceptable to God and worthy of reward. Salvation is a gift not a reward so I`m not talking about that. But the works of a saved person are clean before God because that person has been sanctified. James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. |
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Post by hansen on Sept 5, 2022 7:07:13 GMT -8
Yes, you're right about Isaiah referring only to the wicked in that passage-and yet it's said that Paul is paraphrasing Isaiah's concepts in Rom 3 as well as conflating them with others all for the purpose in any case of demonstrating that all fall short. And those who maintain that no personal righteousness is possible or in any case required in order to gain eternal life constantly point to Isaiah 64 and Rom 3 to prove that there's nothing we can do, no cooperation we can offer, to work out our salvation-we're just plain bad. But the true gospel is all about the fact that the law cannot jsutify us, but God can. And that, once freely justifed, meaning more than being declared to be just but actually given righeousness/justice from Him, that we are still not forced to cooperate-we can still say no and turn back away at any point. Grace is resistible IOW, as opposed to being irresistible as some theologies teach. Man's will is involved and he can participate in God's work, beginning with accepting and acting upon the gift of faith, or not. As Paul teaches us it is God that justifies. Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. When we get saved we are washed by the Holy Spirit. So the good works of a saved person are purified and acceptable to God and worthy of reward. Salvation is a gift not a reward so I`m not talking about that. But the works of a saved person are clean before God because that person has been sanctified. James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. So you're saying that a justified person cannot sin, and therefore possibly compromise that state of justice and his relationship with God? |
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Post by rickstudies on Sept 5, 2022 7:14:16 GMT -8
As Paul teaches us it is God that justifies. Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. When we get saved we are washed by the Holy Spirit. So the good works of a saved person are purified and acceptable to God and worthy of reward. Salvation is a gift not a reward so I`m not talking about that. But the works of a saved person are clean before God because that person has been sanctified. James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. So you're saying that a justified person cannot sin, and therefore possibly compromise that state of justice and his relationship with God? Not at all. I was addressing how God views the good works of His servants or trying to anyways. Apparently I need to work on it some more. Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. |
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Post by hansen on Sept 5, 2022 7:22:25 GMT -8
So you're saying that a justified person cannot sin, and therefore possibly compromise that state of justice and his relationship with God? Not at all. I was addressing how God views the good works of His servants or trying to anyways. Apparently I need to work on it some more. Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Rev 22:13-15 |
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Post by makesends on Sept 5, 2022 7:53:08 GMT -8
Is this "top controversial topics list" about OSAS or other things posters might be interested in discussing? How would I start my own thread under this heading? I'm not at all computer or online format savvy.
Also, how can I know that someone has responded to something I said, without going through pages looking for what I said? Is there some way to be alerted and to click directly to the spot?
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Post by Admin on Sept 5, 2022 9:32:27 GMT -8
Is this "top controversial topics list" about OSAS or other things posters might be interested in discussing? How would I start my own thread under this heading? I'm not at all computer or online format savvy. Also, how can I know that someone has responded to something I said, without going through pages looking for what I said? Is there some way to be alerted and to click directly to the spot? You go to start of this Board your in now "In the Christian faith, what issues are truly worth debating?" click on "Create Theard" post your OP/ Original Topic, And when you get a reply There will be a notification In your profile under messages. If you have any problem please let me know. |
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So i`m going to take what you are willing to give me and go answer the post in the link. Thanks for helping me out here.
